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PostSubject: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:19 pm

There is one scene at the beginning of "The Family Tree" where Albert's friend Simon gets whipped by his Pa for not coming straight home after school like he was told. I don't know if I'd go so far as to call this abuse since he was not actually injuring the child, but I did think he came down kind of hard on Simon. I counted at least 27 lashings with the belt. What's worse, Simon's clothes were sopping wet which must have made it hurt even worse, plus it would have been humiliating for this to happen in front of his friend. On the other hand, it probably did teach Simon something about being responsible so maybe some good came out of it. I kind of wish they'd shown Simon later in the episode so we could see how he was holding up after that experience and what effect it had on his friendship with Albert. I was just wondering if anyone else thought this was bordering on abuse.
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:00 pm

Yeah, I find it a little too much for a parent to whip someone 27 times while the child's clothes are wet... that parent needs to control himself

I remember the scene you are talking about... I don't remember how hard he was hitting him though... but still.. 27 times??


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:03 pm

I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:03 pm

What I think is important to remember is that the show takes place in the late 1800's when corporal punishment was considered the normal way to discipline a child. There's actually an episode of Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman which deals with this topic rather well. "Just One Lullaby" from Season 2 tells the story of a teacher--the ex-fiancee of Reverend Johnson--who is hired to teach in Colorado Springs.

She uses corporal punishment for discipline and actually bruises some of the students. One of the older boys ends up beating her severely. But before that incident, a town meeting was held and many parents supported her use of corporal punishment to keep order in the classroom.

Nowadays, such behavior would get you arrested, but it was not seen as a problem back then.

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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:37 pm

This was a normal thing and it is not good to show an historical era different than it really was only for "politically correct" reasons.

My grandpa told me that he has been disciplined in this very way and that he is grateful to his father. He loves his father (now deceased), never considered himself an "abused child" and he is not a violent person, not supporter of any violence, wars and such. Of course, my great grandpa (a great man, I knew him) only punished him when he misbehaved, and not everyday. Actually he didn't enjoy punishing his child.

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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:50 pm

My mom went to Catholic school, she had told me some of the punishment by the nuns are totally unacceptable nowadays. But, it WAS acceptable back then. If you misbehaved, you would get a whip.



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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:13 pm

bethandmanly wrote:
What I think is important to remember is that the show takes place in the late 1800's when corporal punishment was considered the normal way to discipline a child.

I wish my parents would have gotten this memo. lol
No, actually I did get belt whippins, but there is a right and wrong way to hit a child.
Some children take advantage and yell at their parents telling them that they will call the cops on them if they are hit so the parent is afraid to discipline her/his child... because some kids even make up stories... believe me, working in the family law field for a while... I heard a couple of these cases... kids thinking they are know it alls and then cry when police & CPS get involved and they are spending the nights in a strangers home while their parents get investigated...


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:33 pm

Lily wrote:
My mom went to Catholic school, she had told me some of the punishment by the nuns are totally unacceptable nowadays. But, it WAS acceptable back then. If you misbehaved, you would get a whip.

Dang. That's awful.
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:08 am

One nun in our school put a kid up against the wall by his throat. She amazingly was sent to a retirement home soon after. Gee, I wonder why?


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:48 am

Oh my goodness Cheryl, really?!?! OhMy Scary. And I love the epie you're referring to in Dr. Quinn...that was really a wonderful comment on child abuse. The story that the reverend tells is beautiful. I wish I could find it online somewhere...I'd post it here.

Wow, 27 times?!?! I do remember that scene...and feeling SO sorry for that boy. Reminds me of Albert playing Pa when the teacher comes to whip him. His father stopped the teacher after what...4 times? And said, "more than enough".

I agree with the others though...this is just 'what was done' back then. You know, even my mom (who was a very 'good' child) was spanked with a belt as a child...nowadays that would be considered abuse, but back then it just wasn't. I asked her once, "Mom, do you realize you were an abused child?" Her response was, "Oh, no that wasn't abuse." I asked her if she would ever have done that to us girls, and she was appalled, thinking about it that way. Of course she couldn't even fathom the idea of that. In some ways, things were better back in 'the old days', but in other ways, society has come very far in a positive way. There is still child abuse, of course, but it's tolerated or accepted now in the way that it was then.


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:03 am

That part of the episode did seem extreme but they were also doing a flashback of Albert being in an orphanage and the abuse he put up with....If children were disciplined back then, I would have to think the majority of the children were disciplined when they misbehaved but not spanked or hit with a belt as a regular way of life ..

As far as the nuns in private schools, my mother went to a Catholic school and they did use various forms of discipline that might be considered unacceptable now, but then again, I don't recall hearing of too many school shootings, drug use and a basic lack of respect back then either...my father went to school in the 50's and he said the worst things kids got into back then was smoking cigarettes in the bathrooms.


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:28 pm

Kathleen Marie wrote:
As far as the nuns in private schools, my mother went to a Catholic school and they did use various forms of discipline that might be considered unacceptable now, but then again, I don't recall hearing of too many school shootings, drug use and a basic lack of respect back then either...my father went to school in the 50's and he said the worst things kids got into back then was smoking cigarettes in the bathrooms.

True enough Kathy...there are certainly two sides to the coin. :think:


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:51 am

Well That was in the 1800 they whip there children whenever and whereever they wanted and they were more strick the too


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:43 pm

Now a days the kids would hit the teachers.

Way back in probably the 40's or 50's my dad's brother beat the crap out of a teacher for hitting my dad because he asked to go to the bathroom. That teacher never messed with my dad again, lol. My uncle is a pretty big dude and the teacher was very small. When I was in the 8th grade our principal (a nun) slammed this dude up against the chalk board and got away with it.

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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:00 pm

My 2nd grade teacher in El Salvador once hit me on the palm of my hand with a ruler... my PE coach in that same school was a mean cranky old man... He would make us form a line before taking us to the park in the hot sun and if one of our legs stuck out from the line, he would hit it w/ this thick rope he used to have.

We would run in the hot sun and I remember our faces getting red. I mean... we were 7 year olds and he treated us like we were in some kind of a drill team or something. He had a short temper and would pick up a kid and scream at him if he didn't complete the course. I told my mom how he was.... My mom knew him and one time during PE Class, my mom walked to the park and took me out of the class :P


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:30 pm

Kathleen Marie wrote:
That part of the episode did seem extreme but they were also doing a flashback of Albert being in an orphanage and the abuse he put up with....If children were disciplined back then, I would have to think the majority of the children were disciplined when they misbehaved but not spanked or hit with a belt as a regular way of life ..

As far as the nuns in private schools, my mother went to a Catholic school and they did use various forms of discipline that might be considered unacceptable now, but then again, I don't recall hearing of too many school shootings, drug use and a basic lack of respect back then either...my father went to school in the 50's and he said the worst things kids got into back then was smoking cigarettes in the bathrooms.

I was thinking that's why they shot that scene that way too - it was meant to give Albert a flashback to his own experience in the orphanage so it may have been a little exagerated for that maybe?

I agree with the rest of your post too Kathy.




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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:58 pm

wow! i used to get spanked when i was younger but now i get grounded. in a way its getting punished but then again its sorta abuse becase he shouldn't have hit him that many times No but if he lived right now he would've been in jail.



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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:32 am

ouchy.I agree with beacky now a days for sure the kids would more likely hit the teacher's... I'am glad that hiting rule doesn't happend anymore in school..But in one why thats a good why to scare kids from geting into trouble in the first place..


I don't even think spanking kids really helps or teaches the kids anything when they are bad./
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:48 pm

I am glad they don't do that anymore either. If a teacher hit my kid now and my kid hit the teacher back, I would not be mad at my child. I would want my children to defend themselves. Even if they were bullied. And then I would sue the crap out of the school.

Beckie


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:10 am

I went to a convent school and never witnessed any physical punishments at all so I guess not all nuns were bad.

And hey! Pa wasn't a stranger to giving out the odd whipping either! In the very first of LIW books, Little House in the Big Woods, I remember reading that he whipped Laura for something. I think it was something about her being noisy on the Sabbath if my memory serves me right.




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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:03 am

I dont think it was abuse, personally, since whipping was often used as a punishment around that time. but I have to agree, it was probably embarassing for Simon to be whipped in front of his friend. but I do still love this episode because Albert is adopted!!
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:57 am

Twenty-seven times? Wow. That's too much even if it was back in the 1800s. I know that kids were most likely getting more licks back then, and it was acceptable, but that's still a lot.

I'm all for spanking (aka whippings/whippins), but nothing like that. It was a rare happening, but my Mom used a belt on my brother and me. The belt probably made contact about five times at the most per whippin, and my Mom never felt all that great about doing it. I'm glad she did it, though. I may have pouted back then, but I know what the reasons for those whippins were for as she always made sure we knew why. Some parents just go at a child w/o any warning and often times w/o any logical reason. That's sad.

If not for my Mom going about it the way she did, I may have turned out like many others and feel that it's just fine to beat a child without a second thought, instead of a maxium of five licks and an explanation of why, and being told that I was loved even if I did misbehave.

Oh, and as for kids today, calling the cops or threatening to call them on their parents... I hate that with a passion! mad
Too many parents are afraid of their kids and they just don't do a thing to set them straight. I have a friend who has a 15 year old daughter and she's always been afraid of her threats since she was old enough to know about calling the cops. Her husband...well, ex-husband was "old-school" like me and he wanted to spank the child. They had huge fights over it and he eventually left her because he couldn't put up with an eight year old child trying to run his life and his house while his wife sat and did nothing. He truly loves his daughter, but hates her attitude. Now, at 15, she's running wild and her Mother, still unable to say "no" to the child, allows the girl's boyfriend to sleep over and in the girls bed with her. :scratch: Ugh! I could... Frying pan ... her.
She said she knew if she didn't give in, the girl would hold up her threat and run off with the boy and marry him and she'd never see her again. Man! When she was ten, the three of us went on vacation and the child tried to run my business. Oh, no! I was not having it! I set her straight in a hurry! Her Mom did anything and everything that child told her to do. Not me, buddy! Not me!

I'll hush now.
:shy:





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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:33 am

sweetheart wrote:

I don't even think spanking kids really helps or teaches the kids anything when they are bad./
It's Biblical.
It makes the child afraid to do something wrong, it also makes them know their parents are in charge. ...uggg I should know :sad5: bawling

But I do think the scene was exagerated. :BatHit: Poor Kid must have been killer to act out...

carolineingalls wrote:
And hey! Pa wasn't a stranger to giving out the odd whipping either! In the very first of LIW books, Little House in the Big Woods, I remember reading that he whipped Laura for something. I think it was something about her being noisy on the Sabbath if my memory serves me right.

I think it was for slapping Mary.

MattLabMyLove wrote:
I am glad they don't do that anymore either. If a teacher hit my kid now and my kid hit the teacher back, I would not be mad at my child. I would want my children to defend themselves. Even if they were bullied. And then I would sue the crap out of the school.

Beckie


I would be mad if a teacher hit a child of mine *when I have children* if she just hit him. But if my child was deserving I might not be as mad. but hit is a bad word. If a teacher punched a kid I would so be mad, but in some schools it is still considered ok to spank a kid *with the parents permission* I went to a school like that and if you got sent to the office you could get up the three licks with a paddle. That kind of "hitting" would be ok with me if the kid knows they are being punished for doing wrong, and the teacher wasnt just being mean wile doing it, like laughing. *FYI I never got sent to the office, I was a good girl.*

One more thing then I will stop. He deliberatly disobeyed his father. Back then Diliberate Disobedience was like rebellion and was high up on the bad list with stealing cheating, fighting, stuff like that. Children were expected a lot more of back then than they are now. Boys were considered grown up at like 14 or 15. I heard this one lady telling a story about her grandfather *or was it her great-grandfather* That when he was 8 his father wouldnt let him cry no matter what happened bc it was babyish, and he hot punished if he did cry!


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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:26 pm

one of my favorite episodes, even though Albert's friend was whipped in the beginning. I was glad to see Albert finally become an Ingalls, especially after he used his scheming and pretended to be blind so he wouldn't have to live with his biological father
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PostSubject: Re: child abuse?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:07 am

Amy wrote:

Wow, 27 times?!?! I do remember that scene...and feeling SO sorry for that boy. Reminds me of Albert playing Pa when the teacher comes to whip him. His father stopped the teacher after what...4 times? And said, "more than enough".

Wich episode are you talking about? I dont remember that one. *I thought I had seen most episodes, but everyday I find at least two episodes that I have never seen befroe??!?!?!? Shocking!*

Edit: Oh I figurede it out!


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