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 Baby Number Seventeen!

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Carol
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 12:31 pm

My feelings are mixed on this.

I was raised in a small family so I can't even imagine a family that size... but they seem to be well organized and they really make time for God, the kids seem well behaved and good.

The one thing I wouldn't be able to handle is being so isolated from the real world... they don't have a tv set... how do they get their news and actually see how things work out in the real world? The kids don't get to associate w/ different kind of people, different races, experiment other people's cultures by going out and interacting w/ others.

It's great that they seem to be good kids, it would just be good if they were not too sheltered or protected.


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 12:36 pm

Honestly, with a family that size, I can't imagine how they'd find time for tv, Carol. Seriously. Even with my family, between piano practice, school, church activities, youth musicians, Bible time, playing outdoors, story time, etc - there just wasn't time for tv. I don't have a conviction against tv, we just didn't have time. News came through the internet or newspapers. But I see your point.
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 12:40 pm

wow.....
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Carol
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 12:40 pm

You're right Savannah... I guess TV would be out of the question lol
They must have internet thought because they have a webpage...

I guess, just the interacting w/ different kinds of people.... but who knows... maybe their father has taught them a lot of things regarding society, etc....

I did see part of the episode when they were building the new house and also saw when they went shopping and putting the groceries away... they seem to be organized, and that's good.


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 12:59 pm

I don't want to make anyone mad. I don't agree. I know everyone has a opinion. Here is mine. This family supports themselves without any gov help. Who are we to say they should have only a few kids. Is there a law saying so. I myself would never have that many. My 4 boys are plenty. I'm sorry if I made anyone mad.

RoseRed wrote:
To be honest, I think this is very sad.

I hate to be negative, but with the human population issues we already have, it's frustrating to see people that unconcerned about it.

Imagine what the planet will be like in another 50 years if the population keeps growing the way it is. And people like these simply think that "God will take care of it"

That way of thinking just irritates me to no end.

It also annoys me that there are so many children in need of homes that are ALREADY ON THE PLANET and if people like that want a huge number of children without adding to the current population problem, why not adopt some of them?

Sorry, but I don't see anything good about having alot of kids. :(

I can understand having one or even two because alot of people want genetic offspring, but for crying out loud...
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 1:17 pm

It's not the government I'm concerned about, or taxpaying.

It's the planet :)

Maybe I'm a bit hyper-sensitive about it, but I think we should all consider ourselves care-takers of this planet and producing that many humans just seems irresponsible to me.

And to be honest, I think there should be a law.
I had to prove myself responsible, prepared and educated and then acquire a state license and permit to own exotic cats.
But anyone can have kids.
Not only should we have to prove ourselves fit to take care of a helpless human being, but there should be a law dictating how many we can have.

I know alot of people will shout about human rights and all that...but obviously we arent going to do this on our own.
And something has to be done before all wildlife is gone, the eco-system is ruined and our grandchildren or great grandchildren have to figure out a way to survive on our destroyed planet or figure out a way to move to another one.

The idea of having as many children as one wants sounds great...until you consider the future of the planet and everything that lives on it.

100 years ago, this might have been a neat story. But people are educated today and they KNOW that we have a human population problem and they just don't care.
At least these people obviously don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 2:44 pm

Yes, the planet is to be considered, but we must remember that the effect population will have on the planet is not only determined by the number of people but also how the people behave towards it.

It could be that this family of 17 waste less energy than a rich family of 6 w/ kids all driving their own cars, living in their mansions using a lot of electricity, etc....

I was watching a show the other day of how this community of about 50 people were doing everything they could to save the environment... and that community of people seemed to put less strain on the earth than other smaller groups around the county.

And now that the Duggar family has a lot of land... maybe then can start planting some trees and fruits, vegetables, etc.... grinsmiley


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Absolutely. I agree.

Every person should try to conserve and do what they can to help.

But it isnt going to help wildlife and it isnt going to help as far as land mass goes...if the population keeps growing the way it is.

We could have a planet full of environmentally smart people and still not have enough room for all the other creatures that have just as much right to be here as we do :)

It has already happened and is currently happening at a frighteningly rapid rate.

Alot of people ask what difference one species really makes until we see the effects.
We've lost so much already and are still losing more and more species due to human encroachment, landfills, polution etc.

And our poor oceans...:(
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 3:32 pm

Here's another way to think of it:

Imagine if everyone decided to have 17 children. If you did the math, that would explode our population to unmanagable numbers and be devistating to our planet.

What gives these people the right to have 17 children. We couldnt ALL do that and have it be okay.
So why should certain individuals be able to do that?

Under the current rate of consumption of natural resources we are already doomed to consume the current resources available under the current population.
That will only happen faster with increased population.

Google the information and find valid information backing this up.
The facts are irrefutable.

There are things we could do right now to manage our resources, but those things wont happen in time for it to make a significant impact.

Simply too many people just don't care.
Then you have your religious people (that's like 90% of the population) who think that God put us here to reproduce and so it is okay.

Were just setting ourselves up for extinction :)
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 5:24 pm

Michelle's last baby, Johannah Faith, was born in 2005. She has had a little bit of a rest. Although I wouldn't want to be the one in charge of all of those children, the family is well under control, debt free and living life to the glory of God. They are in better financial situation than a lot of people. They believe that children are a gift from God. I enjoy watching them on TLC.


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 5:31 pm

Can I ask what you mean by living life "to the glory of god"?

I'm not trying to be argumentive, I'm genuinely curious.

Is all life a gift from god? Or just human life?

Is the planet a "gift from god"?
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 5:43 pm

http://www.sixpak.org/vince/overpopulation.html

This paragraph stood out :

The earth does not contain enough resources to indefinitely sustain the current enormous population growth. For instance, there is a limited area of arable land and living space. China, home to 1.2 billion people or 1/5 the world's population, is an excellent example of the kinds of problems that arise in an increasingly crowded society. Trying to increase the standard of living of its people, China has industrialized and the economy has grown (Hanson). This increase in wealth has increased the demand for food in China. The demand is so great that China went from exporting 8 million tons of grain in 1992 to becoming a net importer of 16 million tons of grain in 1994 (China News Digest). This causes a world-wide grain shortage which raises prices, which in turn puts food out of reach of even more people.

In many areas, there is simply not enough food to feed the growing populations. Each day 40,000 children die from malnutrition and its related diseases. 150 million children in the world suffer from poor health due to food shortages (Turbak, 20).


40,000 Gifts from god die from malnutrition?
150 MILLION children in the world suffer from poor health due to food shortages?

But I thought it was okay to produce as many offspring as we can or want because god will provide?
Why isnt he/she providing for these children?

I'm not putting down religious people...but I'd like to know what on earth these people are really thinking?

I don't care what god/gods you answer to...everyone has the right to believe whatever they want.
But I don't think telling our children or our grandchildren that the reason they have to clean up our mess is because we thought that god would provide for us is quite going to cut it.

And it is our children and their children that are going to suffer the consequences of how we live today.
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 5:56 pm

RoseRed wrote:
Can I ask what you mean by living life "to the glory of god"?

I think she means the children are being raised having knowledge of God, as they have several bible studies and they seem to be god fearing... meaning they try their best to live by the bible's guidelines and not wanting to do things that will make God upset or sad.

RoseRed wrote:
Is all life a gift from god? Or just human life?
Is the planet a "gift from god"?

Yes, ALL life (animal/plant/human) is gift from God. The planet is a huge gift as that's the place He gave us to live in but sadly men are damaging it. Blue

Like I said, I would never have that many kids... a friend of mine is #15 of 16 kids and she tells me that it was very hard for her growing up because they didn't have enough income for all the kids... while little, there were times when she had to drink coffee instead of milk. She never had brand new clothes for school and w/ so many kids... it was hard for her mother to have close relationships w/ them because there were just a lot of kids. I guess it was a good thing that The Learning Channel provided this family w/ not only the materials to build that home but furniture as well... or else I think they would still live in the small home they had.

Seems like the Duggar family uses the 'buddy' system... meaning older kids take care of their younger brother/sisters... whatever works I guess.... personally, I would like to have a relationship w/ my kid(s) as they go through all the life stages in life.

I don't have anything against the Duggar family... I'm just amazed at how they handle everything and the children seem happy and healthy so....


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 6:47 pm

I don't have anything against them personally either.

I do understand that population control is a touchy subject.
Trying to discuss it is almost impossible because people feel understandably defensive and they often feel that their children are being attacked.

But really, it isnt an attack and it isnt personal.

It's just getting to a point where "god will provide" just doesnt cut it anymore.
The facts cannot be ignored anymore and there is no excuse for that level of irresponsiblity. We don't live in a 3rd world country, we have access to birth control and we are educated.

I agree that all life is a gift and we should all do everything we can to protect that life.
We neuter and spay our pets and they are living beings.
We have no qualms with it because it is the responsible thing to do.
Why can't we be responsible with ourselves?

It isnt a matter of whether or not these folks "have a right" to have that many children.
It is a matter of whether or not it is "right" for them to add to a problem we are already having with our home (our planet)
Why couldnt they adopt 17 children?
Maybe 17 of those starving children? :(

It also really isnt a matter of whether or not they have alot of money.
Having alot of money to raise your children is nice, but it doesnt mean we should use that to justify adding to an already crazy number of humans.

I know it annoys some people and I don't want to make any enemies here, but this is something I really care about.

I have 2 children (they came as a package deal with my husband) and I hate to think what they'll have to deal with when they are my age.
I am a healthy woman in my early 30's. I could have kids, but the 2 I am raising are enough.
But if I ever DID want to raise more children and I was in a financial position to do so, I would adopt.

I just don't understand how people can ignore the facts.

There's nothing wrong with religion and I want to respect it...but when I hear some of the things that people say to justify destroying our planet and all that live within it...it is really hard for me to respect it at all.

The saddest thing is that there is a very small number of people who really even care if we over-populate and they arent making a dent.
By the time it becomes a world-wide concern, it will be too late.
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 7:55 pm

Well, I read more on the Duggar family as I didn't know too much about them...
Here are some of the concerns I have.

For example, they have this land (7,000 sq feet) and a huge house but only TWO rooms for all the kids... all the boys in one and all the girls in another one. With a house that size... I think the kids could be divided a little more.... :shifty:

Also, it seems like the girls are doing a lot of chores all the time, they are expected to wake, dress, bathe, teach their younger siblings. They wash and cook everyday. Some of the girls have said that they would like to be stay-at-home moms when they get bigger and have lots of kids .....
One of them said that she is most looking forward to is a larger laundry room so she can get the laundry done faster... okay, and this is a girl in her preteen years... and another girl said she was in charge of cleaning her parents' bedroom... Huh?
It seems like this girls and boys are not having a carefree childhood... they have too much responsibilities at an early age. The mother was a cheerleader when she was young... it's too bad her own daughters can't have the same childhood life. No

They use this technique called 'Blanket training' where basically you sit the baby on a blanket. If he/she tries to wander off the blanket, the parent hits the blanket with a stick, wooden spoon, or he gets slapped etc., in order to startle the kid and teach him/her to stay in place. Poor baby... Blue

The kids are being completely isolated from the rest of the world, they only know what their parents have taught or told them. As much as I love my family.... I need my space... I need my chance to grow on my own, form my own individual personality as I experience and socialize.
Bliss

I don't think it's good to be so isolated from the world. Yeah they read the bible but do they forget that in the bible Jesus gave a lot of advice and warning of how his followers should act in bad situations. Why? Because we live in a world where not all things are rosy... we are surrounded by negative things and when we face trouble and choose the right path, it's a way for us to become stronger in the faith. How are these kids going to have a chance to demonstrate how strong in their faith they are? :think:

Anyway, that's all I'll say for now, as I'm at work, but getting ready to go home. :sillySmiley:


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 8:17 pm

http://health.discovery.com/convergence/duggars/duggarfamily.html
The family built their own home, it's huge. They are a wonderful family. Try to catch them the next time they are featured on TLC.
The term "giving glory to God" would mean that the family gives thanks for God for each child as they come and raise these children to believe that He is the source of all good things.
Sorry, didn't mean this to be a theology lesson/argument. It's just what the family believes.


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Wed May 30, 2007 9:35 pm

I won't be watching their show.

I don't want to support this in any way, shape or form.

I don't think it's wonderful.

But everyone has a right to their own opinion.

I'll just apologize to my grandchildren (when I have them) in advance, before I die, for failing to make people listen.
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu May 31, 2007 10:50 am

A woman can only take so much child birth. This one pharmicist I used to work with had like 20 siblings. The mother died in childbirth while giving birth to the youngest child.

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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu May 31, 2007 8:18 pm

They built that new house, and the kids are in only two of the rooms?! Egads! That's not right! What's the deal with keeping them all bundled up like that?

I read the comment about childbirth being hard on a woman's body. Yes, I agree. I've done a little research on the topic, and it can take up to two years for a woman to fully heal from childbirth. I've often heard my older female family members say that having babies too closely together and having so many can be a danger to your health.

Anyway....

I personally don't like the idea of the kids being so tied up within the family, as I mentioned before they only seem to play with siblings. And it does seem to me that the girls may follow in their mother's footsteps and have lots of kids too, as they don't seem to know any different. They should be exposed to all the wonderful things that are offered to women in the professional world. I'm in no way against raising a family and staying home with the kids. Let's get that out of the way. I've often thought that I would love to be a stay-at-home mom, if I ever have kids. But I also know that I can choose to work outside the home as well. That's how I was raised. It's all about options.
Again, all the things I'm saying are my own opinion, and I haven't gotten any of this directly from the show or other any other forms of information on the family. I've only seen the show a few times, and honestly, they got on my nerves so I decided I'd had enough.

Back to the kids. What about child safety? I saw where they took a trip in a large van or some sort of RV and only the smallest of the kids were in carseats...no others were in seatbelts. I've never been in an RV, but I assume that if you're riding in the dining area, there aren't seatbelts in those "booth" seats, but if you're traveling with kids they need to be in seatbelts. If they don't have the proper car or van to travel in, then maybe they shouldn't travel. I'd hate for the older kids to put in more time of taking care of the little ones, but if shopping/errands needs to be done, the parents or the eldest kids should go shopping and leave the younger kids with those old enough and responsible enough to watch them.

I've wondered if the kids would ever be prepared for college and jobs away from home. Yes, I know that no one is ever fully prepared for life away from home, but with the Duggars, it seems they're so sheltered from anyone and anything else that they won't know what to do once they're outside the eyesight of their parents.

I'm sure parenthood is a wonderful thing, and I hope to experience it someday. But I don't want to feel obligated to produce a dozen or more children because I, or my husband would feel we must aid God in giving the gift of life. I feel that's what the Duggars may be thinking. My opinion, of course. No intent to hurt those of you who support the Duggars and have large families of your own.

I just can't see myself telling my children that you can't have this or that because of your brothers and sisters. That's exactly what it is. If you have four children, it will cost more than three. Some people will say it costs the same and that you make the money stretch, but I don't agree with them. Any time you have a large number of children, someone will always have the hand-me-downs and someone will always go lacking in something. They may or may not complain about it, but they know it's a fact. What if they grow to resent the parents and/or siblings because they can't have certain things?

I wouldn't like anyone to tell me how many children I'm allowed to have, and I wouldn't want that to be a law here in America. But I do hope that people would take into consideration that it's hard on everyone involved to raise a large family. Some people don't believe in any form of unnatural birth control, so...

But even the rhythm method might work for many people if put into play. Geeez! I wonder if the girls will ever take notice of all the birth control that's out there, or will they choose to ignore it?

I can't stand the idea of the parents depending on their children to play the role of parent. It reminds me of a "Growing Pains" episode. When the Seaver's found out they were having another baby, the older kids weren't too excited about it. And then the parents told the kids they'd be depending on them to take on responsibilties of helping to take care of the baby. I may not have worded it exactly as they said, but you get the idea. I can see asking them to babysit once and a while, but to tell them that they'll be taking care of the baby...basically no question about it and that's your job. No I don't like that. It was as if the parents were angry because the kids reminded them that they're teens and want to do things they've been waiting to do. I don't know what the writers were thinking with that episode. I never really liked that show, and that little bit really bugged me.

Getting back on track...

During the first Duggar special I saw (I think I've seen two...that was enough), things are so organized w/ them because the kids are doing so many chores, it can't help but be organized. I think if they were allowed to do something other than what the scheduling allows, total mayhem would come about. I don't think the parents could function w/o the help of the children acting as parents. Again,...my opinion.

Someone posted that the last baby was born in 2005. Thanks for the info.





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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:48 am

I haven't read that much on the Duggars, so I can't say too much about them.

I don't have a problem with what they're doing. Since it's a Christian family, I'm sure that they go to church and will have contact with other people that way.

When you have seventeen kids, you're going to have to have them help around the house. Most kids these days don't do anything to help around the house. From reading comments here, it sounds as though the children have quite a few chores. I don't think I can say that they do too many chores without observing a week in their house. Reading about something is one thing, and experiencing it is another thing...


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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:45 pm

:fyi: LITTLE ROCK (AP) - It's a girl - again - for the Duggars.
Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar welcomed their 17th child, and seventh daughter, into the world Thursday.
The Duggars say Jennifer Danielle was born at 10:01 a.m. at Saint Mary's Hospital in Rogers. Jennifer weighed 8 pounds, 8 ounces and arrived five days after Michelle's due date.
Less than 30 minutes after giving birth, the Duggars already were talking of having more.
Michelle Duggars says the family would "love to have more" and "love the ruffles and lace."
Jennifer joins the fast-growing Duggar brood, who live in Tontitown in a 7,000-square-foot home. All the children - whose names start with the letter J - are home-schooled.
The oldest is 19 and the youngest, before Jennifer, is almost 2 years old.

Jennifer joins siblings: Joshua, 19; John David, 17; Janna, 17; Jill, 16; Jessa, 14; Jinger, 13; Joseph, 12; Josiah, 11; Joy-Anna, 9; Jedidiah, 8; Jeremiah, 8; Jason 7; James 6; Justin, 4; Jackson, 3; Johannah, almost 2.



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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:59 pm

I forgot about this thread. Congrats to them.Applause
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:59 pm

Congratulations to them.........


But...........Jinger? Huh? I swear, I'd be constantly singing "I've got spuuuuuuurs that jinger jangle jinglllllllllllllllllllle". :sing:

OH WAIT!! :Hahaha: I'm so tired..........I bet it's GINGER with a J, rather than Jinger-rhymes-with-ringer. :Hahaha:
Like.........:blonde:
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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:32 pm

I will not be able to remember all of their names, on top of that, all have the same initials. OhMy

Congratulations to the Duggars on baby #17.



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PostSubject: Re: Baby Number Seventeen!   Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:38 pm

Lily wrote:
I will not be able to remember all of their names, on top of that, all have the same initials. OhMy

Congratulations to the Duggars on baby #17.

I just thought of something. I usually say the other boys name before I get the right one I'm wanting. Just think of the Duggars.....Hey Josh wait John..I mean Joe or did I want James.ROTFL


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